38. My Daughter Elizabeth Interviewed

[00:00:00] People need to be able to look at the scriptures that they were always taught, condemn homosexuality, and they need to know that it's okay even after years of thinking one thing to change our minds. So to those people I would encourage you to keep going, seek out diverse voices on these topics and know that it's okay for your beliefs to be evolving.

[00:00:22] We know that about 25% of youth identify as queer now and so this is not a small portion of the population. So many of us are really tired of this bait and switch that has happened in so many church organizations where we're told that everyone's welcome and it's not until we've invested years as participants and volunteers that we find out that if we don't agree with certain beliefs then we end up having to choose between these amazing folks.

[00:00:58] We're talking today about the de-churching of America, the dramatic decline in church attendance by people under 35 and the abandoning of organized religion by many millennials and Gen Zers. And I'm interviewing for the first time my 30 year old recently married daughter and Stanford epidemiologist,

[00:01:37] and biostatistician. Welcome, Elizabeth. Thanks for having me. Just so people have a bit of context, we raised you in an evangelical mega church. You went to Sunday school and youth group from the age of about four or five through high school, I think. And you went on many mission trips, both with us and on your own.

[00:02:05] You attended a Jesuit university and were a small group leader and a young life leader in college. And you're recently married and attending an affirming Presbyterian church. That's great.

[00:02:22] Taking a page out of the Zoe podcast, we're going to start with six quick questions. Yes, no, or if you have to, a one sentence answer. And then we will go back through and dig into all of those. So if you had children, would you take them to church? Only LGBTQ affirming churches. And even then it would be a discussion about if it's a safe space for them.

[00:02:53] Do you think it's safe to regularly take a child to a non-affirming church? I don't think so. Studies have found that LGBTQ youth, race and religious environments experience increased discrimination and internalized homophobia and have more suicidal ideation compared to their peers in less religious, with less religious importance in their lives.

[00:03:20] Has the treatment of LGBTQ individuals and sexual minorities caused some young people to leave the church? Absolutely. Has the treatment of women in the church caused some young people to leave the church? Yes. There was a recent New York Times article that I sent you titled, In a First Among Christians, Young Men Are More Religious Than Young Women.

[00:03:46] And the article talked about some of the reasons why young women are leaving the church, including sexual and spiritual abuse, lack of women in leadership, and the patriarchal beliefs that women should submit to men. So some churches claim the ideal state for young women is married with children. Did you sense that growing up in any of the churches that we took you to?

[00:04:12] I'm going to give a longer answer, sooner than a answer note for this one. I grew up with women in leadership, single women leaders in my youth group, and I would say just around very ambitious women that modeled leadership. So I think the message about women, that women should be married with children, was more subtle, mainly just in the way that heterosexual marriage was celebrated as kind of the goal.

[00:04:42] But I know that this messaging around women is much more overt in some churches and some communities where women are not allowed to lead, and they're explicitly told that their role in life is to be a wife and a mother, which I was never explicitly told that. But I do think that there were some more subtle messages in modeling that way. Last question.

[00:05:06] Has the prohibition on premarital sex and the treatment of staff members or other volunteers who were cohabitating with their boyfriends or girlfriends caused some young people to leave the church? Yes. Wow. Okay. So you have a fair number of friends who went to church when you were in elementary school and high school that now no longer do.

[00:05:36] What other factors have led them to leave organized religion, or do you want to elaborate on any of the ones we've already mentioned? Yeah. So, I mean, I have friends that still attend church and friends that don't, so it's definitely a mix. I think that a lot of it has to do with lack of acceptance in churches.

[00:05:59] So we've talked a little bit about the lack of acceptance for women and queer people, but also people of different races and ethnicities, immigrants, people with different experiences, viewpoints, and backgrounds. Then the upper middle class white communities that make up so many of these evangelical churches.

[00:06:21] I think people in my generation have questioned church authority or church teachings and have often been shut down, dismissed, or gaslit, and that has really turned them away from the church.

[00:06:36] I was thinking about my personal experience, and in our church growing up, we were taught that doubting was a good thing, which I'm sure in some churches that's not necessarily taught that way, but we were taught that doubting your faith was a good sign because it means you're questioning things, and questioning is a good way to grow. We were always given the example of doubting Thomas in the Bible and how that wasn't a bad thing.

[00:07:03] I remember multiple times being told, like, that's okay. It's a good thing that he was doubting. He was being honest, and it would be normal to doubt that Jesus was resurrected. I was thinking we were taught to doubt our personal faith and directly have personal questions for God, but we were never really taught to question what the church was teaching or church power and authority.

[00:07:31] And I think that's kind of the difference that I'm seeing now is when people have questioned that and been, you know, turned away or dismissed. That's kind of, it can be hard to want to stay in an institution like that. That's a good distinction I had never made.

[00:07:48] I was thinking as you started talking about the Jesuits who really are known for helping people deal with difficult questions, but the second half of your remark about questioning your faith is fine, but questioning the church authority is kind of a different category. Interesting. Yeah. You have stayed involved with a church, and some of your friends have.

[00:08:16] Kind of, what was your calculus and your thinking about that? I wasn't set on staying in church. I was tired of an institution that, you know, there's just, there's, were lots of things going on in the world in 2020 when I left my other church and then 2021 when I started attending my current church.

[00:08:46] And I think some things that encouraged me to stay when I started attending my new church was one thing was that it is an LGBTQ affirming church, and I hadn't experienced that before.

[00:09:00] And then connected to that, but broader is just, they were willing and open to talking about and praying for current events, you know, like Black Lives Matter, school shooting, trans rights, reproductive rights.

[00:09:17] And that continues till today, you know, praying for Palestine and, you know, beyond praying, but really like talking about it, having, they had a voter education workshop the other week, which was nonpartisan. So they're not telling us how to vote, but they're open to talking about these things and engaging with the community on the things that we care about and the things that are happening in the world.

[00:09:46] And I felt like that wasn't happening in the church that I was in before, probably because they didn't want to upset anybody or lose donors or attendance.

[00:09:59] So I think I was in before, but I think those are just some things that have caused me to say. And also the fact that the community feels really genuine. There's not like fancy lighting and music.

[00:10:25] There's not catchy sermon series titles. It doesn't feel like it's trying to lure people in. It just is a place where people can be a community as they want to be and care for each other and get to know each other. It doesn't feel like they're trying to evangelize and reach as many people as possible and just get people in their seats, which I think is kind of like the point of some of these mega churches is to grow and grow and just increase attendance.

[00:10:53] And I think it's really refreshing to be in a different space than that. So when you kind of think back on your childhood church and what you are now, if someone came to visit your church who had never been to a affirming church, what strikes you as different or what might strike them as different?

[00:11:19] Yeah, I think one thing is that queer people in the LGBTQ plus community are openly celebrated. So in June for Pride Month, members of the community who identify as queer are invited to share their stories. And that's something that our church often does for different groups of people or identities in different months.

[00:11:43] We had people sharing for Hispanic Latine Heritage Month recently, Black History Month, Disability Pride Month. So it's not just something that's done with the LGBTQ community.

[00:11:57] But I think that's one thing is just seeing, for me, seeing both people that work at the church or just attend the church, being able to not only lead, but preach and share about how their queerness is beautiful and a reflection of God's expansive creation has been really life-giving to me. So I think that's something that someone who's never been in that environment of an affirming church would get to experience.

[00:12:27] So, yeah, I think that's just one example. So what do you think the church is known for amongst your peers today? I mean, obviously it depends, but I think unfortunately the church is known among younger people today for their judgment and narrow-mindedness.

[00:12:49] I've been in these churches that often preach messages of love and stories of Jesus-loving orphans, widows, non-religious people. But then I look around and the loudest Christian voices are putting their time and money into taking away reproductive rights and trans rights. They're spreading lies and hate towards immigrants. They're endorsing sex predators and white supremacists as politicians.

[00:13:19] And they're just doing all this very openly as Christians and in the name of Jesus. And I think it's really awful. And I don't think it's representative of Jesus at all. Amen. So I've met priests, pastors, and church elders who privately are affirming. Some have queer children or relatives. And yet they work at non-affirming churches.

[00:13:48] Do you have a theory about what is going on? Yeah, I think first and foremost, it's about money and power, as I've mentioned. People at these institutions are scared of losing attendees and most importantly donors if they speak out on this issue. So I think that's a big thing for sure. I think some of these institutions, it's easier to change than others, right?

[00:14:17] And I used to attend a church that the denomination doesn't allow the church to be affirming. At that church, I knew a lot of young people, including people that worked at the church who wanted it to change, but had really very little power to do anything about it because this already big mega church was a part of this larger institution that had these policies. And I mean, you could probably say the same thing about the Catholic Church, for example.

[00:14:45] I think it will take a lot of work to change their views on this. That being said, I do admire those who are dedicated to the long game of changing religious policies. But I think at some point you have to decide how long you're willing to give your time and your money to an institution that's unlikely to change.

[00:15:08] And then the third group of people, well, it's maybe not a group because it is probably for these people could also be related to the first two issues I described. But the other thing is that I think especially in the Bay Area, which is very liberal where we are, there's a lot of people who I would call like culturally affirming, if you can say that. Like they at this point, they've met queer people.

[00:15:35] They may even have queer people in their family, like you're saying. And they have no problem accepting these people in their lives. And they're probably in support of gay marriage and queer rights. But then when it comes to church teachings on sexuality, they haven't really thought that hard about it until now. They always were taught that homosexuality was a sin. So this is kind of like the hate, the sin, love, the sinner group. The everybody's welcome group.

[00:16:04] Everybody's welcome in the church. And then it's not until a gay couple asks to get married or a youth group leader comes out as gay, that suddenly their cultural beliefs collide with their church beliefs. And so I think this is where resources like your podcast are super valuable because we need to be able to think critically about what we've been taught and know that it's okay to change our mind.

[00:16:30] And for you and me both, we've been on a journey to where we are today. And so I think people need to be able to look at the scriptures that they were always taught, condemn homosexuality, and they need to know that it's okay, even after years of thinking one thing, to change our minds. So to those people, I would encourage you to keep going, seek out diverse voices on these topics and know that it's okay for your beliefs to be evolving.

[00:17:00] Wow. Last question. So if you were advising a church today, it's elders or pastors on retaining young people, what advice would you give them? First, I would ask yourself, why are you trying to retain young people and really look at your motivation?

[00:17:25] Because if it's just to get numbers and have people in seats, I don't think that's a good enough reason. Like I said at the beginning, I don't think a lot of churches are safe places for LGBTQ youth. And we know that about 25% of youth identify as queer now. And so this is not a small portion of the population. So I think that's the first thing is really ask yourself why you care about this issue.

[00:17:53] And are you really willing to listen to young people and do the work that needs changing in your church for them to actually be safe and welcome? Because if you're not, then I don't think it's a really necessarily should be your goal to just try to bring people back into an institution that's not necessarily good for them. So that's what I would say first. And I think part of that is becoming an affirming church, but that's not the only issue.

[00:18:19] So I think the other things that you need to do are listen to young people, especially queer people and people of color. Find out what they care about, what they're passionate about. Ask them what they think about faith, what their community needs from church. And then be willing to actually act on what they say. So be willing to co-imagine and co-create a community with them,

[00:18:46] even if it's different from what you consider to be traditional church. I would say don't focus on growth and numbers. Don't focus on fancy events, catchy slogans and sermon series or cool music. Just focus on genuine and authentic community. As I mentioned, something that I appreciate in my church is don't be afraid to talk about current events, politics, social justice, and issues that matter to young people.

[00:19:15] And don't put money or donors above these things. And then lastly, I would say be clear, be open, and be honest about your beliefs and values. Because I think so many of us are really tired of this bait and switch that has happened in so many church organizations where we're told that everyone's welcome. And it's not until we've invested years as participants and volunteers that we find out that, as my sister was saying to me,

[00:19:46] our belonging is predicated on belief. And if we don't agree with certain beliefs, then we end up having to choose between these amazing friends and community that we've built and our beliefs. And that's a really terrible situation to be in. So if you're going to have some of these beliefs, just be open and honest from the beginning so that people know what they're getting themselves into. Well, thank you very much, Elizabeth,

[00:20:14] for having the courage to go on the record. Well, thank you for having me. Thank you for joining. If you have enjoyed this episode, I'd love to have you leave a comment or a review on whichever podcasting service you use. If you need to get a hold of me privately, you can go on the website, thebibleandhomosexuality.com. And click on the contact tab.

[00:20:43] This is Elton Sherwin. Stay safe and God bless.